Our interview series continues with a conversation with Katarzyna Dworzyńska – one of the leading figures in the PR industry on Polish LinkedIn. It's a truly powerful dose of fresh insights, so don't be hasty with this article. Make a cup of coffee, find a comfortable spot, and only then dive in. This interview deserves it!
Maciej Popiołek: What's it like working in the PR industry in 2020? Has the proliferation of new communication channels and the fact that brands need to "talk" and not just speak made it a more stressful industry than it was even 10 or 15 years ago?
Katarzyna Dworzyńska: In 2020, PR is just as good, if not even better, than it was two or three years ago. The multitude of new communication channels is tempting and creates incredible prospects and opportunities for building brand image in places where it wasn't possible before. On the other hand, it's still important to remember the essence of PR activities, the goals we want to achieve, and the target audience—and only then choose the right channels and tools to help us achieve the desired results. Dialogue with the PR community, regardless of the venue, is more than desirable. If the message is one-sided, we're talking about advertising. Is working in PR more stressful now than it was 10 or 15 years ago? I assume not. The responsibility for the image entrusted to you is the same. However, you need to be more careful—because there are definitely more places to monitor.
MP: Verseo is an SEM agency – the main measures of our advertising effectiveness are conversions (a selected type of action on the website) and clicks. We can summarize all our activities numerically, and it's difficult to interpret them (it's marketing). PR used to rely on other indicators and metrics. Focus, top-of-mind, the equivalent of acquired articles in list prices. Does all this hold up in an age when we can count everything? Are PR metrics evolving? If so, what new developments can be mentioned, and is everything moving towards more precise quantification?
KD: I recently had an interesting meeting with a potential client. After an hour of talking about how we could help them streamline their communication processes, what working with a PR agency looks like, and so on, the client said, "I've been building my own company for 15 years, and it currently employs over 120 people. I employ a team of specialists and have loyal clients. I've achieved success. But from the very beginning, my business grew organically, and I didn't invest in PR. So why do I need these activities, why do I need an agency?" I replied, "You'll never know where you would be today if you'd taken care of public relations from the very beginning." I replied. Is PR measurable? I won't lie, it absolutely is, and always has been. It all depends on the tools we use to build our image. Is PR as simple and "clickable" as marketing? Does it have clearly defined CTRs, CPLs, CPCs? No, and it never will be, because PR and marketing (advertising, SEM, SEO, ads, whatever we choose) are not the same disciplines. The problem is that we often lump them together. PR is about building image, brand recognition, educating the market, establishing expert positioning—all of which ultimately helps in making a purchasing decision and convinces us to choose a given brand, company, or individual. I once read an interview on mamstartup.pl with Kuba Filipowski from NetGuru. When asked where customers hear about the company, he replied, "I've heard about them somewhere," and for me, that's the essence of PR, which I strive to achieve. "I've heard of this company, I know this brand." Which expert would you sign up for training with? Some no-name who pops up on Google after typing the keywords "social media expert," or are you more likely to trust someone whose opinions you frequently read in the media, visit their blog, are in their social media groups, see them at conferences and in the industry press? That's precisely what PR is – you can live without it, but by using even the simplest tools, you can influence brand recognition and, ultimately, sales. And what about hard metrics?
A positive image is the result of PR activities – their goal. Measuring it is indeed difficult, but measuring the means used to achieve this goal is somewhat different. Let's assume that our strategy is based on media relations activities – here we can measure the percentage of reach by key media outlets, we can also determine which media outlets are more or less "quality" for us and analyze our presence in these spaces. At PR Calling, we have prepared two solutions for our clients: we rely on our proprietary PR Indicator, which allows us to assess the value of a given publication on a scale of -10 to 10 based on parameters we define, and/or we determine PR Coverage, which is the percentage of reach by the most important media outlets. It's crucial to prepare the key messages we want to include in press materials and then analyze whether these messages actually resonate in the acquired publications. Interestingly, at the agency, we rarely use AVE; we do it on demand. And a KPI set for a specific number of publications is generally discouraging. This is a very unfair practice, especially towards the client, because not all publications are created equal. Agencies promise to deliver, say, 20 publications, and then generate links from self-publishing sites, or even show clients reports from projects they've completed for other clients during the bidding process. I find this outrageous, but such things do happen.
MP: Beyond content, I closely follow CSR. Although I've been actively doing so for only five years, I've already witnessed the ups and downs of integrating corporate social responsibility into company strategies. In an era of climate change, increasingly strong messages about exclusion, and pressure for sustainable workplaces, is there a chance that CSR will become more prominent in company operations? That it will increasingly become associated with profitability? When building or developing company communication strategies, do you recommend action in these areas as well?
KD: CSR is gaining importance every year, with consumers attaching increasing importance to the activities undertaken by companies in this area and often choosing brands precisely because of "this added value." We've reached a point where companies no longer have a choice. If they want to remain relevant, they must incorporate corporate social responsibility into their strategy – initiatives in this area can't be conceived one day and implemented the next. CSR isn't about making a donation to organization X – individual brand activities in this area have long ceased to be called that; they are simply charity. The topic requires a comprehensive approach – identifying stakeholder groups, setting goals, and creating a strategy to achieve them. These involve months, even years, of planning and implementing changes, including in the organizational structure and planned investments, such as technology. Furthermore, corporate social responsibility is the same as with all other areas of a company's operations – you need to be consistent.
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Take, for example, the recently fashionable topic of packaging. Many companies are currently declaring their goal to combat plastic, and there are many approaches. For example, Kevin Murphy is extracting plastic from the oceans and creating packaging from it; Procter & Gamble is gradually reducing the amount of plastic used – by 30% by 2025; Johnnie Walker intends to replace some of its bottles with paper equivalents by 2021; Coca-Cola will replace the shrink wrap used for multi-packs of cans with a cardboard packaging called KeelClip by the end of 2021; and YOPE allows consumers to refill their packaging with a product. This example alone demonstrates the numerous changes in a company's operations required to implement a single change. These include supply chains, new technologies, production lines, changes in employment, research, and so on. These are enormous financial investments that will pay off handsomely in the long run.
Recently, you could say we had a demo version called "CSR investments vs. returns." The coronavirus brought us a huge surge in corporate social responsibility initiatives, and companies were able to monitor consumer reactions to their initiatives, which were more visible than ever. Moreover, people expected such initiatives, and their absence was also very noticeable. Now we just have to wait for the results of image research and financial data and compare them with the competition, which didn't take the initiative. I hope I'll be convincing. For now, we can only hope that this brand involvement wasn't just a passing fad and is here to stay.
MP: Are these the only “trends” in the PR industry?
KD: Absolutely not. Digital PR and content marketing are developing rapidly, and LinkedIn is increasingly being talked about as an effective channel for building personal and corporate brands. In addition, events and press conferences have recently been held primarily online – something that was unthinkable at the beginning of this year. Now, an invitation to a meeting held on Zoom or Skype doesn't surprise anyone. We've already held our first online conferences, and importantly, they're just as effective as those held offline. I think 2020 is a breakthrough year in terms of new solutions. I'm curious to see what 2021 will bring and whether what we're developing now will stick and become the standard in the future.
MP: Is PR a playground reserved only for large players? Are there sensible PR methods for smaller entities that can also be profitable?
KD: It's like judging who can drive a car – it all depends on your needs, your current location, and the scale of your business. PR certainly isn't for everyone, but it's not a matter of budget, but rather the goal you want to achieve with it. We've had smaller companies approach our agency that haven't yet developed a product/service and don't know how they plan to make money. They'd get all worked up when asked about their business model, but they were already eager to start PR. It makes absolutely no sense. In such situations, we say: get everything in order within the company, take care of your core operations, customer service, and only then think about PR. On the other hand, we advise companies with smaller budgets on what they can do themselves. If someone has 1,000-2,000 PLN per month for marketing and PR, we recommend investing that money in social media advertising.
MP: Is building a personal brand still PR or is it already marketing?
KD: It depends on the tools used. Appearing as an expert in the media is PR, but social media ads encouraging people to download an e-book we've written are more marketing. Again, an interview about the topic we cover in the e-book is PR. But the link to download our material, which we'll post under our interview, is marketing. And we could go on and on 😉 What does this mean? Both PR and marketing are areas that overlap quite strongly. Nowadays, you can't talk about PR without marketing, and vice versa. I like to use the term "communication" and then, depending on the goal, choose the appropriate activities and channels for that communication. The PR we have now is definitely not the same PR we had 10 years ago. But advertising evolves in the same way. That's normal – the world is moving forward, and so are the industry and available solutions.
MP: What was the biggest image disaster this year?
KD: Some candidates' presidential campaigns, but I wouldn't want our interview to veer into politics. From our own, yet non-political, backyard – the recent image crises of Polish fashion brands. First came Fruit of the Loom T-shirts sold under the Veclaim logo, then it turned out that Wishbone Fine Jewellery can also be purchased on Aliexpress, and much cheaper. Then we moved seamlessly to glasses from the Julia glassworks, branded with the La Mania logo. I won't go into detail, as each of these cases has already been well-described and analyzed. Instead, I will focus on the common denominator, the cause: a lack of transparency. And unfortunately, this is a factor that very often leads to image crises for brands, regardless of the industry. Why is this happening? Behind every brand statement lies a promise – for example, high quality, membership in an elite group, safety, prestige. It is precisely because of these promises that consumers choose a given brand and are willing to pay more for it. If promises aren't fulfilled, people feel cheated and exploited, and they lose trust in the brand because they didn't get what they paid for. Moreover, if the brand lied to them or hid something once, it may do so again.
MP: And your greatest success?
KD: Oh my, this is going to be a bit political – I'd start with Szymon Hołownia's presidential campaign. It was going so-so until Onet published a partially unauthorized interview with Hołownia, and then it was already a slippery slope. And then suddenly, an unexpected twist… new people on the campaign team, top-notch experts, and Hołownia goes from being a candidate you used to look at with a wink to someone I really want to vote for. What Szymon's campaign has done is a masterpiece, chapeau bas!
MP: Other examples of success?
KD: Here, I'll give a more general answer. The pandemic was a CSR test for brands, which most of them passed with a perfect score. It wasn't an easy task, so I extend my congratulations to those involved in the client-side and agency marketing departments. Suddenly, overnight, companies had to abandon their carefully developed and planned communication strategies and come up with new ones, adapted to the situation. There were many ideas – some donated funds to fight the coronavirus, others sponsored medical equipment and protective products or produced antibacterial fluids, and still others sewed masks, educated seniors on how to use the internet, organized online concerts, or supported restaurants. Amid this flood of information and activities, in my – very subjective – opinion, the most visible were the actions of Grupa Żywiec and Allegro. The first marketer responded to the needs of probably all of its stakeholders – including: It was the first to collect unsold beers from its premises and refund the owners. It donated funds to the fight against the coronavirus. Męskie Granie fans could watch their favorite artists from home. Żywiec residents received free antibacterial hand gel. Warka created the consumer activation "Put Warka Without Leaving Home," and Żywiec created the "Jak teraz Ż?" ad. So, in the alcohol category in Poland, they certainly achieved an image success. Meanwhile, the Allegro press office reported almost daily about the company's new initiatives. All of them responded to the current needs of consumers and sellers—the company, among other things, provided free access to Allegro Smart!, created a series of "walking" podcasts, introduced the Local Marketplace program, suspended price increases, extended payment deadlines, and suspended commissions for new sellers. It combated disinformation about the coronavirus and banned products related to the fight against the epidemic that were sold at inflated prices, to name just a few examples. The brands set a very good example for others. However, it is not without reason that they are leaders in their categories.
Finally, I'll recommend a few more image ads that I particularly remember. From the beginning of the pandemic, these are Coca-Cola's "To the Human Race" and Guinness's "A St. Patrick's Day Message From Guinness." And from the "post-pandemic" reality, Heineken's "Back to the Bars" and KFC's "We'll take it from here."
I also recommend reading about PornHub's activities, which seem to masterfully exploit every situation. 😉
MP: How does your company, PR Calling, acquire clients? For example, you're very active on LinkedIn – does that mean it's a good space for advertising for this type of business?
KD: At the agency, we strive to diversify our client acquisition channels. We maintain our own agency PR, conduct content marketing activities, and maintain a strong social media presence . Relationships with current clients are crucial to us, regardless of whether they've been with us for a long time or we work on a project-based basis. A well-served client will recommend us in the future, which pays off. We also have clients who return to us with subsequent projects. I also maintain my private LinkedIn profile quite intensively, and indeed, it seems I'm on it a lot. However, I don't treat LinkedIn as a direct client acquisition channel—I simply don't use it for that purpose. However, I believe that LI definitely creates the conditions for effective marketing activities. We conduct such activities for our clients.
MP: What does PR look like for a PR firm? I know your PR, but as a company, do you rely solely on yourself? Are experts the best image a PR firm can achieve, or are there other options?
KD: At PR Calling, every consultant has the opportunity to build their personal brand, which I always strongly encourage. The foundation of any good company, not just a PR agency, should be the good people who create it. Showcasing their expertise always has a positive impact, but there are other options I also enjoy exploring. Case studies are one of them. Showcasing how a given task was completed, along with the results, always works. As long as the results are good, of course 😉 We have them, so we're straightforward – we met the client's expectations in this way and achieved these results. But to avoid theorizing, I'll use an example. In March of this year, Listonic approached us. The company came to us with a specific task – they were looking for a PR agency to promote a report, initially planning to send a single press release. We approached it differently – we proposed a three-month collaboration, during which we would prepare a set of diverse press materials, targeting various media and target groups. We knew that with this approach, we would achieve much better results. The client agreed to our proposal. Ultimately, the project was a resounding success, and we presented the process on our website, in the form of a case study. Some might think we were "revealing" our know-how. I take a different approach – I demonstrate best practices. If we all operated this way, there would be no problem questioning PR, because everyone would know that PR is effective. Other options? Content marketing (company blog, webinars, podcasts), social media, events. There really are plenty of them.
MP: What makes a company choose your company for PR services? Is price a major "ranking factor," or are you noticing that other factors are increasingly taking over, and if so, what are they?
KD: Clients who come to us often run their businesses based on new solutions and new technologies, and they're looking for an agency that doesn't just do PR for PR's sake, but works closely with the client's business, goes beyond the norm, is transparent, and delivers results. Price isn't the deciding factor; we're not a "cheap" agency, although we don't charge chain rates. To put it colloquially, we do good work. And that's what works best for us.
MP: What book on marketing and PR would you recommend?
KD: Oh, this is going to be tough, because I haven't read anything worthwhile in my field lately. However, I can recommend a few books that have developed me as an entrepreneur. A "must-read" for me is "Scaling Up" by Verne Harnish – anyone running a business should start with it! "The Entrepreneurship Myth" by Michael E. Gerber – a classic, but it opened my eyes, and "Good to Great" by Jim Collins – a pleasant read. Others include "Creative Rituals for Work" by Kursat Ozenc and Margaret Hagan, and "Youpreneur: How to Build and Grow a Business Based on Your Personal Brand" by Chris Drucker (actually, it could be lumped under PR ;).
I also like to revisit titles I read a while ago, like "Freakonomics" by Steven Levitt and Stephen J. Dubner, or books by Timothy Ferriss or Steven Covey. I also recently read "The Power of Habit" by Charles Duhigg – very good. And now I'm struggling with "Shantaram" by Gregory David Roberts. Once I finish it, I'll go back to business books. I have a few on my shelf. But that's a while yet 😉
MP: Since you're involved in brand communications, is there anything missing in this area in our market? What things aren't being communicated sufficiently by brands? Is there any area that's completely untapped? 🙂
KD: The topic is so broad that it's difficult to generalize, but I'll try to answer, although it would be easier to talk about specific industries. There are brands that have excellent communication – it's clear that professionals are working on the topic, there are those that are occasionally heard of, and others that aren't mentioned at all. Let's leave the former alone and wish them luck in their future endeavors. The latter lacks consistency, above all – sometimes a company issues two press releases in a single month, publishes three Facebook posts, and then goes silent for six months. That's not the way to go. Of course, we don't always have topics for broad communication, but PR is more than just sending out press releases. We have a number of tools that are worth and should be used: social media – both corporate and expert, various reports and conferences, interviews, statements, webinars, podcasts, etc. If we don't have a "media story" at the moment, let's build visibility in other ways – educate, comment on the market, participate in radio shows, or appear as a guest on a podcast. And finally, for companies that don't communicate at all – it's high time to start, and we're happy to help. 😉
When it comes to untapped areas, it's impossible not to mention image crises. Brands are learning to cope with them and are getting better at it, but in most cases, the "ideal solution" still looms on the horizon. The best-managed crises are the ones we never heard of. In the age of social media, however, this isn't always possible, and a crisis can "spill over" the internet before a brand has a chance to react. We live in fast-paced times. The problem is that companies react too slowly, lack transparency, and communicate in "big words" instead of recognizing the individual in the recipient. They go silent for days and block comments. A simple tip? If something has happened and the company doesn't know why, avoid phrases like "thank you for letting us know, we'll look into it, and get back to you with a response"... sometime in the future. Let them know that they're grateful, that they're sorry, that they'll investigate, how much time we need, what the process will look like, and ask for patience. Let's respond to comments. Let's engage in dialogue and treat people as people. That's all there is to it.
We thought this was the end of the interview, but while we were working on it, the coronavirus reached Poland, bringing with it all its consequences. So we decided to expand the interview to include this topic as well.
MP: What was the average reaction from companies to the introduction of the initial restrictions, such as school closures? Did they withdraw budgets? Ask for recommendations? Consider changing the business narrative?
KD: The lockdown was unprecedented for all of us, and everyone navigated it in their own way. Some companies withdrew budgets, others intensified their online activities. The coronavirus was so intensely present in our media landscape that, in the initial phase of the epidemic, it was impossible to communicate without referencing the current situation. We were in constant contact with our clients. Together, we considered how to respond to the introduced rules. We observed the market and spoke with journalists. In fact, those companies that had previously been communicating continued to do so, but they changed their narrative and adapted it to the new circumstances.
MP: I imagine that the current situation has made many companies more aware of corporate social responsibility. Do you think that providing incidental support to sectors like healthcare is a sensible solution at this time, or should companies remain within their own areas of operation and possibly provide assistance there?
KD: I don't know the strategies of the companies you're talking about, their capabilities, budgets, or technologies, so I can't answer that. However, I believe that everyone makes decisions based on specific data, with long-term goals in mind. And in the circumstances we find ourselves in, any help is good, as long as it serves us – the people.
MP: Will the virus and potential future threats cause businesses to evolve? Will the entire situation push us in a certain direction, for example, towards greater investment in online, which holds up well during such a crisis?
KD: Some businesses evolve, others will cease. For some, the crisis will present a huge opportunity and provide a boost in development, while for others it will mean the need to refocus and find a new career. As history shows, every crisis brings changes. One of them will undoubtedly be the transition to online for those who haven't yet done so. However, I assume the changes will be much more profound and will have a long-term impact on the entire economy.
And finally, traditional organic. 🙂
Catherine DworzynskaHead of Business, PR Calling
PR Calling has been developing its PR services since 2014, offering clients services based on the synergy of traditional PR tools with modern solutions. Over the past six years, it has implemented a number of PR projects and campaigns, including for GovTech Polska (KPRM), Mindshare, iTaxi, 4Mobility, the Embassy of Sweden, and others. Previously, it was associated with PLAY (2013–2014) and Orange Polska (2008–2013).
An expert at the Polish Development Fund, she eagerly shares her knowledge in industry magazines, during lectures, presentations, and workshops.
She is a graduate of the Leon Kozminski University, where she majored in Management and Marketing, and the Faculty of Journalism and Social Communication at the University of Warsaw.
In her personal life, she's a healthy lifestyle enthusiast who practices CrossFit and runs. She's the mother of two boys, Mikołaj and Teodor.
Summary
The above article covers the following topics:
- A conversation with Katarzyna Dworzyńska about the PR industry
